Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello, and welcome back to Grow Tential. It is the Father Daughter podcast where we love to share what we're learning and how we're growing in life to help you grow alongside with us. It's been a little while. How are you?
[00:00:13] Speaker B: I'm better. After the flu. I'm much better.
[00:00:16] Speaker A: You had the flu. You had bronchitis. You had oral surgery. You had the flu again.
[00:00:22] Speaker B: Don't get old. You won't like it.
[00:00:24] Speaker A: Yeah. You've been a disaster.
[00:00:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:00:26] Speaker A: Well, welcome back.
[00:00:27] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:00:28] Speaker A: So the podcast is coming out a little bit late because life. So.
But we are excited to be coming back to you in February, the month of relationships.
I think there is a special dynamic when you get to work alongside of your family. I do, too. We've had the gift of being able to work alongside of each other. What's been your favorite part?
[00:00:52] Speaker B: Just getting to see my family every day. I mean, a lot of people don't get to see their adult kids all the time.
[00:00:58] Speaker A: Yeah. What's been the most challenging part?
Seeing your family every day.
[00:01:04] Speaker B: My girls have strong opinions. They're not easy to. They don't always.
[00:01:09] Speaker A: Oh, Katie, she is just so difficult.
I think one of my favorite gifts is just seeing the authentic side of who. Who you are at home and who you are at the church. It is one man. It's. You and mom have always been so incredibly faithful, and so it's been beautiful to see.
My kids and I were talking, and there's a statistic that something like 66% of kids who grow up grew up with a dad as a pastor or just strongly involved in the church, they left the faith all together.
And one of the discussions my kids and I were having is that when you see someone on stage and then someone different at home, you can see easy why that might happen, the hypocrisy of life. But what I appreciate with you and mom is you've always been so incredibly authentic and very real and shared your struggles and shared your heart, and I got to see you follow God. So faithful. So.
[00:02:14] Speaker B: Yeah. A couple of years ago, we read a book written by a pastor's son, and he was pretty brutal. Yeah.
[00:02:23] Speaker A: Honest.
[00:02:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:02:25] Speaker A: Which. Do you remember the name of it?
[00:02:26] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm just not going to say it on the podcast.
[00:02:29] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. Yeah, skip that book. Yeah.
Well, I think the beauty of families is it's God's great idea.
[00:02:38] Speaker B: Yes, it is.
[00:02:39] Speaker A: And I think when something's God's great idea, the attack might be even harder in reality. And so what we want to do today is we want to talk about how to cultivate healthy family relationships, but use some biblical models that maybe didn't go so well.
So when you and I were talking about this, you started with. You had five, but I thought we're gonna have to cut this down a little bit. So if you guys enjoy this and want to hear the other two, let us know and we can do an extra podcast on it. But right now, we're gonna probably stick to part one and a part two.
So can you start? We started with Abraham for today.
[00:03:21] Speaker B: Right.
[00:03:22] Speaker A: What was the family dynamic there?
[00:03:24] Speaker B: So, Abraham, first of all, I want to start by saying the author of Genesis calls Abraham a friend of God.
So we start from the premise that Abraham was a man who was trying to live a life that was pleasing to God.
He wasn't a pagan.
And Abraham and his wife.
[00:03:48] Speaker A: I'm sorry to interrupt you. Do you think people who aren't in the church world know what pagan means?
[00:03:55] Speaker B: So he wasn't an unbeliever. He wasn't someone who didn't care about God.
[00:04:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:05] Speaker B: And God promised him that he would have children and that he would bless the world through his children. Well, Abraham and Sarah got to be beyond the age of having children, and they didn't have any children.
[00:04:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:22] Speaker B: So Sarah came up with the idea that Abraham could take her, a servant, Hagar, as his concubine and that she could have a child and that that child would be Sarah and Abraham's child.
[00:04:43] Speaker A: And this is common. You'll see this in the Bible. And I think sometimes one of the arguments against faith is some of the context of the story you read.
So you see concubines, you see servants, and you see these things in the Bible that it's like, well, you. If this is God's authentic scripture, then why is this stuff in there? And I think it's important to point out that the Bible is a historical document also. It's not just theology. It is. It's. There's literature, there's history. And so we do see this kind of stuff in scripture because it is real. And so you see the context of the history of the times.
[00:05:33] Speaker B: And you also see that wherever a man had more than one wife, it never turned out well, did not go well. There is not one positive story of a man having more than one wife. Yeah, every single story has a unpleasant twist in it.
[00:05:51] Speaker A: Yeah, it sure does.
[00:05:53] Speaker B: So Abraham takes Hagar, is his concubine, and she has a son, and it changes the family dynamic.
[00:06:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:06] Speaker B: Now Hagar is not giving this son up to Sarah to raise. And Hagar feels like she should be the first wife because she has a son and Sarah doesn't.
And it created a very, very stressful family dynamic.
But they worked it out until Sarah had a son.
[00:06:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:35] Speaker B: And 14 years after Hagar had a son, Sarah had a son.
And then the tension, the.
The unpleasantness increased, and it became so ugly that Sarah stormed into Abraham's tent and said, I want them gone.
This servant woman's son will not inherit with my son.
[00:07:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:13] Speaker B: And now Abraham has a dilemma.
He loves God. Ishmael is his son. He loves that boy.
He loves Sarah.
And the family is tearing itself apart.
And every time I read this Sarah, I'm reminded that we can love God and we can try to live the Christian life the best we can. And we are still susceptible to the normal.
The normal tensions and dynamics of life.
Because Abraham loved God, it didn't take the tension out of his marriage, and.
[00:08:03] Speaker A: It didn't disqualify his life from making bad choices.
[00:08:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:07] Speaker A: Because ultimately, I think part of this story is they took things into their own hands.
[00:08:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:18] Speaker A: And I think often in our life, we can do that, too. And God finds a way to work through it. I truly believe with all my heart. Because he works all things together for our good.
And I think he does that for Ishmael and Hagar, too.
[00:08:34] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:08:34] Speaker A: You'll find us in Genesis. And if you read through, you'll get to see how God meets them in a special way and blesses him in a special way.
So when it comes to the. The idea that, okay, we can be faithful, we're also human, so we're going to mess up.
What is your take on how to take steps to create something healthier in the midst of that?
Or do you have insight?
[00:09:05] Speaker B: Let's help people with the end of the story.
In the end, Abraham sends Hagar and Ishmael away. Abraham lived in a very large tent city.
And in the end, their family was torn in half.
[00:09:22] Speaker A: Yeah, it was.
[00:09:23] Speaker B: And Hagar and Ishmael left, and God did meet Hagar. And she said, surely you are the God who sees.
Okay. But Abraham still suffered the sorrow of losing part of his family.
And I think. I think the author of Genesis is saying to us, being a follower of God means our sins are forgiven.
But my sins can be forgiven. And I can still feel the sorrow of it all.
So I think of families. I think of people I know who have in their history. They have a failed relationship.
They.
They just failed to make it work. And it ended in separation. And they carry with them these. These sorrows and these memories, or they carry with them the feeling of being rejected, or they carry with them the sense of, I wish I would have done things differently.
[00:10:51] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:10:53] Speaker B: And in the story of Abraham, we have this sense that although Abraham experienced all of that, he was able to find equilibrium in his relationship with God.
He was able to find well being in his relationship with God.
There are some life mistakes that we can't fix, but we can find consolation in our relationship with God.
He is the God of all comfort.
He is the God who causes our sins to be removed as far as the east is from the west. And. And Abraham was able to go on being the man God wanted him to be even after that very unpleasant family experience.
[00:11:56] Speaker A: And I think one of the hard things, too is, you know, when there is shame or there is regret or there is that wishing you could go back in time, it can keep you so stuck.
And so the pain that should hurt once or twice, it hurts a lifetime over and over and over again.
We've talked in the past about, I think, regret and shame quite a bit, but at the heartbeat of what I believe Christ wants to do in our life is to help us reset in the kind of way where our life is new. It can be transformed. So in your opinion, and through all the years of counseling that you've helped families and maybe you know, in your own life too, what is one step you would suggest people take if they find themselves in this. This divided family and their heart feels torn, their heart feels stuck and broken.
[00:12:59] Speaker B: I hear the apostle Paul saying, cast all your cares upon him because he cares for you.
So I would say the starting point is I have to have this sense that even in my sorrow, God is present with me. That even. Even in my mistakes, God cares for me. I am a firm believer that a parent is more.
A parent is more attentive to a sick child than a healthy child.
[00:13:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:38] Speaker B: And I think God.
[00:13:39] Speaker A: Gentle and lowly. Goodwin.
[00:13:41] Speaker B: Yeah. I think God is more attendant, more present, more.
More outgoing to us in our sorrows because we need him so much.
[00:13:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:58] Speaker B: The second thing is something I learned from Shay.
[00:14:04] Speaker A: My beautiful mama.
[00:14:05] Speaker B: Yep.
Gentleness is a powerful thing.
In these times of stress and in these times of not getting along as a family, we tend to lose the.
The benefits of gentleness.
[00:14:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
So reactionary.
[00:14:34] Speaker B: Yeah. A soft answer turneth away much wrath.
We. Maybe we can't fix it, but we can handle it in a more gentle way.
[00:14:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:48] Speaker B: We. We can.
We can give each other the benefit of the doubt?
[00:14:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:59] Speaker B: We can have a.
We can have a less preconceived, judgmental attitude.
You. You meant to hurt me. You did this on purpose. You never cared.
[00:15:13] Speaker A: Yeah. I also think, too, that parents should be the parents.
[00:15:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:21] Speaker A: I think if you expect your kid to apologize or make something right, you're going to be living in a. In a bad expectation.
[00:15:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:32] Speaker A: Like, we are the parents for a reason. Yes, I.
My daughter Lex was telling me that. I can't remember if it was a podcast or a book, but there was a man who was saying, like, it's just too far gone. Tik tok, tik tok, TED Talk, TED Talk.
The relationship's too far gone. It'll never be made right. He was in his 40s or something, and the person he was speaking to said, well, let me just. Let me just ask you this. If your parent called you today and said, I've been thinking about when you grew up. I've been thinking about how I treated you, and I just want you to know that I love you and I'm sorry. What would that do for you?
And the. The person started crying, and it's like, no, you're right. I guess it's not too far gone. That would change everything for me. And so I think there is a truth, too, that it's never too far gone. I wonder, what if Abraham had the chance, if he would be able to talk to Ishmael, you know, what might he say?
[00:16:36] Speaker B: And so it's interesting if you pay close attention. In Genesis, Ishmael joined Isaac in burying Abraham.
[00:16:45] Speaker A: He sure did.
[00:16:47] Speaker B: So I have some sense that although the Bible doesn't tell the whole backstory, I have some sense that Abraham and Ishmael must have reconnected in some way. Otherwise, why would Ishmael be there? I mean, I've done funerals where people refused to come.
So I have a sense that God in his goodness found a way for Abraham and Ishmael to reconnect in some way.
[00:17:28] Speaker A: I like that. That's beautiful. It is interesting when you kind of read between the lines and some of the scripture can be dangerous, but what you find. Yeah, the family, Joseph's family will. Jacob's family will see it in a little bit. I. There were some things that I saw that I'd never seen before. So when we get to that, I'll talk about that. But, yeah, so I encourage parents, like, it is never too late.
Be the parent. Be who God's called you to be. And make the phone call or make the first initiation. And I just want to say to the kids, too, you don't realize this as a kid, but when you become a parent, you realize you don't really know much and you're doing it for the very first time. And things that you think are a good idea, you're like, I was a idiot. Why did I think that was helpful?
And so I think the grace of being a child and just knowing, too, that they're doing it for the first time is important.
[00:18:31] Speaker B: Yes.
I'd like to speak to dads if I could.
Being the spiritual leader of my home doesn't mean that everybody has to do what I say.
Being the spiritual leader of my home means I always initiate.
So if an apology needs to be made, I initiate in making that apology.
If, if, if. If we need to pray together, I initiate that prayer.
[00:19:08] Speaker A: Yeah, you've always been good at that. I don't think I've ever really gotten off a phone call where we haven't prayed, you know, and that's very rare.
[00:19:16] Speaker B: Every day.
Every day, I hold Shay's hand and pray with her every day.
That's what it means to be the spiritual leader of your home.
So right.
[00:19:31] Speaker A: Not to lord over or not that you are above, but you are the initiator.
[00:19:36] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:19:36] Speaker A: That has been the healthiest context of that scripture I think I've ever heard. Andy Stanley does a really good job of context of that scripture also. But. But I want to speak to the women, too, because I think. I think in healthy relationships, that would be wonderful. So men, if you can do it, do it. But women, we need to do it, too. I think that outdoing one another in honor, this is. This in practice of. I am going to initiate health. Even if I'm sick of initiating it, Even if I'm like, here we go again, you know, I am going to initiate it.
And then this is where. This is where I meet God as a comforter.
If. If it's not being initiated in my life, I have a comforter. I have somebody who sees me. I have someone who loves me. And it is found in God. And I think that's putting him as our first love. I don't know if this is going off the rails, if I'm being a little.
[00:20:37] Speaker B: No, I think it's. I think it's spot on.
[00:20:39] Speaker A: Yeah. I feel like we lose sight of our first love and we put people in that, especially when it comes to the family dynamic, especially because we talk about God as a father and you can have very unhealthy views of your dad. Like, there's so many things that our emotions and our realities can make it hard to see through. And so I feel like when we put God first as our true first love in our life, he comforts us, he meets us, he strengthens us, he gives us the things that we so badly need and are looking for.
In other things.
I've had some friends who just had to admit, like, my parents are broken. I love them. It wasn't a great relationship, but they're broken.
We're at home. We have a baby, dogs, a coffee, pots going off. I don't know if you can hear it, but someone always said. Someone said, do you want to. We have a podcast room. Would you like to film in it? And I was like, we're just too comfortable here. So you get a little peek in the rowdiness of our house. I'm not even sure if they can hear it all, but okay. Anything else you'd like to say with that?
[00:21:54] Speaker B: No. Let's move on to dynamic.
[00:21:56] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. We are at 20 minutes. So I think what I'm gonna do is this might be a three peace podcast.
If this isn't your family dynamic, I promise you, I think we're gonna hit it. So come back to find out more. Next time, we are gonna be talking about Isaac, and you will really be able to speak into this because it's about having favorites. And as I sit here as your favorite daughter, we will really be able to talk about the ins and the outs of that relationship. And you know how it blesses me but maybe hurts the others. So.
So next time we are going to be talking about Isaac's family and what it looks like when favoritism can cause some real hurt and pain in the relationship. And then we're also going to be talking about Jacob and the dynamic of. Of divided families.
[00:22:50] Speaker B: Mixed families.
[00:22:51] Speaker A: Yeah, mixed family units and some of the things that that can cause. So join us next time on Grow Tension. We hope this has been helpful. If it has been helpful, we would love for you to share it. Can you share it with someone that maybe needs this talk and maybe just a better understanding of the goodness of God through the pain of life. I appreciate you. I love you, my dad. I love you, and I will see you next time.
