Confidence Over Fear - Part 1

[00:00:05] Speaker A: Hey, welcome back to Grow Tential. I'm Sarah and I'm with my awesome dad, Doc. How you doing today? [00:00:10] Speaker B: I'm doing pretty good. [00:00:12] Speaker A: Good. We are the father daughter duo and we love to learn and grow. And quite honestly, I love to learn from you, my dad. So we started this podcast to have honest, helpful conversation about some of the conversations we have privately at home and some of the things we're learning. I think one of my favorite things growing up has always been as we got older, having these conversations that really no one else is a part of. It's kind of just you and me or maybe one of the kids or siblings. [00:00:44] Speaker B: Summer friends. [00:00:45] Speaker A: Yeah, the summer friends, the backyard friends. And today we're going to be talking about some very interesting things that I think are extremely relevant right now. But first, I want to know, if you could travel anywhere in the world, where would you go? [00:01:06] Speaker B: I would probably visit Jerusalem again. [00:01:11] Speaker A: Really? [00:01:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Israel. Not just Jerusalem. I went there for two weeks and it's so fascinating. I mean, you're seeing 4,000 years of history. [00:01:27] Speaker A: I might have a hookup. I'll talk to you after this. Legit. I might have something fascinating. [00:01:32] Speaker B: Awesome. [00:01:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Jake and I just got back from Mexico. He had a little work trip. [00:01:41] Speaker B: Yes, we see the suntan on your face, my dear. [00:01:43] Speaker A: The glow, the glow. It felt so lovely. I would sit out. We had a balcony that overlooked the ocean and I'd sit out there and I would have my worship music on. I'd spend time with God. I would do like a little workout and I could have stayed there on that back patch patio. Just being in the sun all day, it was awesome. But we, when we got home, we were saying, where are some of the places we just would be interested in going? And you know what's funny is we have always found our favorite spots and then we just return. So. Yeah, we love the beach and we love renting a house on the beach. We've done Michigan a couple times on the lakes there. And I was telling Jake it'd be fun to start to go see the U.S. like, we've not seen much of the U.S. believe it or not. Have you? [00:02:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Back in the day, I used to do a motorcycle road trip every summer. [00:02:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:02:35] Speaker B: And I've. And I did that mostly on two lane roads, you know? [00:02:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:41] Speaker B: So I've been so far in nowhere that God was sending angels to look for me. [00:02:48] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I'm excited about that. So. Okay. So we're living in. How old are you, dad? [00:02:57] Speaker B: 72. [00:02:58] Speaker A: So you're 72, you've probably seen ebbs and flows of what the world feels like right now in your lifetime before. It doesn't probably feel like anything brand new, does it? [00:03:12] Speaker B: No, it doesn't. [00:03:13] Speaker A: Okay, so. But for a lot of people, there is this tension. We just entered a war with Iran and there is. There's just a real tension. It's a fear, it's uncertainty. [00:03:34] Speaker B: Yeah. The unknown. [00:03:35] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think it brings a lot of feelings. I'm on social media and there's a lot of end of the world talk and signs, you know, that show us that it's the end of the world, or supposedly show us it's the end of the world. And as I was thinking about this, there has always been a comfort for me being able to go to my dad, who is a theologian, a lover of Jesus, and not a man who. I don't know. You don't institute fear. You know, you're not. That is not your institution. [00:04:18] Speaker B: And so my boss told me 66 times in the book, do not be afraid. [00:04:24] Speaker A: Yeah. And so when I think about all this, there's nobody better I'd rather have this conversation with, because my hope today is by the time we're done with this conversation, there is a confidence that can come from healthy talk around this and a healthy trust in who Christ is. And so can you give me you. So you're 72. So you've been through some things. What have you been through that has maybe been the hardest for you personally when it comes to things you can't control? Wars. [00:05:05] Speaker B: Well, in 1972, the Vietnam War was on, and there had been a great deal of anger in America about the way the draft worked. So if you were rich, you could usually avoid the draft, really. But if you were poor, you couldn't. I mean, if you're rich, you could get into the right college. Your senator would. Would ask for a deferment. [00:05:36] Speaker A: And is this the lottery where they would do the lottery and pull the numbers? [00:05:39] Speaker B: They would pull numbers for every year. And for my year, 72, my number came up 25. [00:05:47] Speaker A: Okay. [00:05:49] Speaker B: So I would have probably gotten drafted because you couldn't get any deferments. And Nixon called off the draft. My freshman year at college, Nixon called off the draft. [00:06:06] Speaker A: So do you know what number it was up to? [00:06:10] Speaker B: You know, it varied, but 25, you'd have gone. Yeah, 25 out of 365. [00:06:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:18] Speaker B: You're going. [00:06:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:21] Speaker B: So that was a time of. I don't remember being afraid. I remembered I was Newly wed to Shay, and I didn't want to be separated from her, and. I didn't want to take the time out of my life because I had this vision for what I wanted to do. Do you know what I mean? [00:06:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, so when you think about, like, where we are at right now, what are some things that come to your mind as far as the war and then the end of the world? Those are two big ones. But I'm just very curious. What are some thoughts? [00:07:04] Speaker B: Okay, so I want to start thinking about how do I think about the war or any war by. What does the Bible say about war? And ironically, we hear our first war in the book of Genesis. The Chet Olammar and his conglomerate make war on Sodom and Gomorrah and capture the cities. And then Abraham is asked by God to go rescue them. So when I look at the general nature of the Bible, God gives us two pictures in Jesus Christ. Sometimes he's called the Prince of peace. [00:07:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:01] Speaker B: And that seems very inconsistent with war. [00:08:05] Speaker A: Mm. [00:08:09] Speaker B: But sometimes revelation, there is an image of him. I saw heaven opened and behold a great white horse. And he that sat upon him was called faithful and true. In righteousness, he judges and makes war. So there you have the warrior Christ. So in the nature of Christ himself, there is a impulse for peace, but there is a capacity for war. Which causes me to say there's no simple upfront answer. All war is bad or all war is acceptable. We can't do it that way. [00:09:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:01] Speaker B: It has to be. It has to be pushed back to what the church called just war. [00:09:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:11] Speaker B: Which means are you fighting it for a just reason, and are you using just means? It's different to kill non combatants than combatants. And we've gotten calloused, and we even have a term for it, collateral damage. But because there is a political expedient doesn't mean there is a spiritual affirmation. So when I think about war, I want to think about what is the reason for this war, and what are we fighting it in a just way. I also recognize in the Bible that we can't assume always that God is on our side. [00:10:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:04] Speaker B: In the Civil War, the North and south prayed to the same God. [00:10:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:12] Speaker B: The divi. The political division between north and south tore the church apart. There were Northern Baptist and Southern Baptist, Northern Methodist and Southern Methodist. So the war intruded into the very heart of the church. And Jesus said, a house divided against itself cannot stand. [00:10:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:35] Speaker B: All right, so an example. God said to Joshua, be strong and courageous. I'm on your side. I'm going to give you the Canaan land and you're going to drive out the people who are here. That's an example where God clearly said, I'm on your side. Then you go to the book of Jeremiah and the Babylonians are invading, and. And God said to Jeremiah, you tell people to surrender because I sent the Babylonians here and I'm on their side, which is the very opposite of the Joshua passage. [00:11:20] Speaker A: So you're going into captivity. [00:11:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:24] Speaker B: So I want to have. I want to start with a position that every war has to be considered individually. [00:11:32] Speaker A: Mm. [00:11:33] Speaker B: And what is the purpose of this war? And what are. What. What means are we using to fight this war? [00:11:44] Speaker A: It's an interesting conversation, and we knew this is going to be. It's not our usual conversation, but I think there's a piece of the soul that needs to be addressed in all this, because at the end of the day, we get that scripture and we can so clearly see what God's in and so clearly see what he's not in. And. And it's a little bit harder, you know, when you're in the middle of something and you don't have the gift of retrospect or you don't have the clarity of hearing God's voice out loud in that way, you know, so it does make it trickier. Fair. [00:12:21] Speaker B: It does. And I'm sorry for interrupting. I want just the issue of war. The issue of war is really. A call for me to examine my relationship to God. It's not a call for me to support my political agenda. So if the party you like starts the war, then you say, well, it's a just war. If the party you don't like, that's what usually happens a million percent. Okay. But I'm a Christian, and that's not where I start. I start with, dear Father, there is a war. How do you want me to lead my life? What effect do you want me to have on people around me during this challenge? [00:13:28] Speaker A: Okay. And so this was my hope is where. This is where we start to get to, because there's so much out of our control. And so Jacob and I were in Mexico. The kids were home. All of our kids are older. For those of you who are just joining on for the first time, I have a 28 year old, a 22 year old, and a 20 year old. And so they're grown up, they're adults. So we're in Mexico. And I was nervous because there's cartel issues, there's just A lot of things have happened. So the war, the cartel issues right now. Airports are supposedly crazy in all the major cities. And so I was just, I was leaving a little uneasy. Everything's great and lovely and no issues. But when we were there, Jacob and I were on a walk that morning and out, this is not confirmed, but out there was a ship that you could kind of just see by the horizon. And Jake's like, that looks like a military ship. And I was like, great. Could have kept that one a secret for me, you know? [00:14:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:40] Speaker A: And then my kids started texting. And I don't remember the exact text string it would take me too long to find, but it was something like, was that an earthquake? My son in law was like, I think it was nuclear. And so I texted, I was like, are you guys just trying to scare me because I'm gone? And then one of my daughters is like, no, we think a meteor exploded. Exploded. And I was like, what is going on? And so a little insight. [00:15:12] Speaker B: I was setting 15ft from we are right now when that thing blew up. [00:15:16] Speaker A: Yeah. And you felt it. [00:15:18] Speaker B: We felt you heard it. It rattled the windows in here. [00:15:21] Speaker A: And yeah. So we, my kids and I start making a joke and I say, you know, the king is coming. I'll see kids in heaven. I think Lexi said, let me know if all the knees, every knee starts to bow. And Taylor's like. And every tongue confessing. So it's easy to go in uncertain to this end of times place. [00:15:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:45] Speaker A: And now I was a little girl that watched a dumb movie at that Christian school called Left behind and it has scared me senseless. Like, the idea was you could love God but not be enough of a Christian that you would still get left behind. And there were beheadings dead. It was horrible. Did you watch this dumb movie or did we just tell you about it? [00:16:07] Speaker B: You told me about it. [00:16:08] Speaker A: Well, they're coming out, I'm pretty sure with a remake right now. [00:16:11] Speaker B: Oh, lovely. Scare another generation of children. [00:16:14] Speaker A: And so there is a reality of what will the end of the world look like? How do you know when is it going to happen and what should we do? Like there is that, that kind of sense. But my hope is that as Christians, we don't fall into the same scare tactics. [00:16:37] Speaker B: Yes. [00:16:37] Speaker A: We don't fall into the same hopelessness or fear mentality. But instead, like you were saying, we live on mission. What was the Bible verse you had just quoted to me a few minutes ago before the podcast started? [00:16:52] Speaker B: Oh, this is the last thing Jesus said to the apostles, before he ascended into heaven, they said to him, is this the end of the world? Are you going to restore the kingdom of Israel? [00:17:07] Speaker A: Which, if you're going to believe, that's the time to believe. Jesus was. They could see him physically after death. You know, the king is here. [00:17:17] Speaker B: Absolutely, yeah. And Jesus said to them, it's not given to you to know the times that the Father has fixed in his own authority, but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, and to the remotest parts of the earth. [00:17:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:38] Speaker B: So Jesus plainly said to us, don't waste your time on these end of the world schemes. [00:17:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:47] Speaker B: Sarah, I've been hearing the signs of the times since the 50s. This is a sign of the times. This is a sign of the times Russia. [00:17:57] Speaker A: And that's probably just when you started paying attention. Right. Because your dad probably heard it. [00:18:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:02] Speaker A: And his dad probably heard it. [00:18:05] Speaker B: So there is a. There's a morbid fascination with the end of history that the New Testament doesn't share. Paul is very, very brief, and he basically says, there will be an end of history. And the archangel will shout and a trumpet will sound, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, and we who are alive and remain will be caught up into clouds, and there we will be forever with the Lord. [00:18:48] Speaker A: It was also a cloudy day when the meteor came. So that also played in my mind. [00:18:54] Speaker B: So basically what it's saying is you can't read the newspaper. Why? Nobody reads papers anymore. You can't watch cable news, or it's [00:19:05] Speaker A: literally on the front of your phone as soon as you open it. You know what I'm saying? [00:19:09] Speaker B: You can't look at all these things and say, this connects to this chapter in Revelation. This connects to this chapter in Matthew's Gospel. [00:19:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:23] Speaker B: Jesus and Paul both said that. That's not the way it works. [00:19:29] Speaker A: Okay, so in your opinion, how does it work and your opinion, for the people that are listening and maybe grew up with some of these care tax tactics. Grew up. Not really fully understanding. And I'm gonna be honest, I still don't fully understand. I'm still trying to study and understand better because there's. So there's. Whoever your teacher is, basically, is how you determine what if this is end times. If this was Jerusalem, like, there's. There's debate in the theological world, heavy debate. [00:20:07] Speaker B: There are. [00:20:09] Speaker A: So. So tell me, how do you interpret. How do you say, okay, right now in this reality, based on the Scripture, all authority and power has been given. [00:20:22] Speaker B: All right, so I believe the end of the worlders become disconnected from the culture they want to reach. They, their, their target, their target audience stops being people who are far from God. And their target audience becomes a group of people who are endlessly fascinated by somebody's ability to connect something in the news to something in the Bible. [00:21:04] Speaker A: And let's say. [00:21:05] Speaker B: And they go off mission. [00:21:06] Speaker A: And so let's say, let's say they have a good spirit, they're trying to understand the best they know how to. And but what's the end goal for us? Like, what's the end game? How do you live in a healthy sense of confidence and a healthy sense of well being when you look around? [00:21:33] Speaker B: My goal is to build and expand the church. My goal is to find neighborhoods where churches have gone out of business and us start new campuses there. My goal is to have a great kids program that inspires children and they want to grow up to be followers of Christ. All right. And if you're doing all this into the world stuff, you're not doing the discipleship stuff you should be doing. [00:22:13] Speaker A: Right. Because you're waiting for it all to end instead of future thinking future. [00:22:20] Speaker B: I actually had somebody say to me when we built this phase one, at least you'll never have to worry about paying it off. God will be back by then. Well, we're going to pay this. [00:22:33] Speaker A: Well, here we are this year. [00:22:35] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. If we would, if that would have been our mentality, we wouldn't be where we are. [00:22:42] Speaker A: And I do like this idea of like, let's stay focused on the mission. [00:22:47] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:22:48] Speaker A: We do get one life. And the truth is, if it's not the end of the world, it'll be the end of our time. [00:22:53] Speaker B: Yes. [00:22:53] Speaker A: And we never know when that's going to happen. And so living with mission and living with focus and living with a deep love for people and a deep love for God is the game changer. [00:23:05] Speaker B: Yes, it is. [00:23:06] Speaker A: And so when you think about your grandkids listening to this one day or now your great grandkids listening to this, what would your hope for them be? [00:23:18] Speaker B: I would say don't let people draw you into the idea that this is different than it's ever been. There have been wars and rumors of wars throughout human history. In fact, there's never been a time in my 72 years that there wasn't a war somewhere. War is a. Humans turn out to be very violent beings and we resort to war again and again and again. So don't ever let somebody say this is different than it's ever been. This is just like it's always been. The symptoms are just different. [00:24:05] Speaker A: Okay, now I'm going to ask you kind of a crazy question. And part of this podcast has always been on my heart. Like, I want you around when you're not around. I want to be able to know, what would my dad think? Or. So I want to ask you a wild question. What if it was the end of the world? What would your advice be? Would it be the exact same? [00:24:34] Speaker B: Exact same. Blessed is the servant when his master comes, he finds him doing what he asked him to do. Yeah, that's Jesus. He said the greatest thing that could happen is I show up and you're fully engaged in making disciples. You're building a church, you're nurturing children in Christ. [00:24:57] Speaker A: And there's quite a few small parables in the Gospels that are like that, that when he comes, you're prepared, you're working. Okay? So stay on point. [00:25:10] Speaker B: Stay on mission. [00:25:11] Speaker A: Stay on mission. Love your family. [00:25:14] Speaker B: Love your family. [00:25:14] Speaker A: Love others. [00:25:16] Speaker B: Seek Christ daily. Pray. [00:25:20] Speaker A: Okay. What would you say to some people trying to understand and maybe there is some fear wrapped around when Christ returns? Like, maybe there is. And it's not fear of I don't love him, it's fear of. It's just scary. You know, some of the things are. It's scary. What would. What would your. Like Judgment Day and standing before the great throne. Like, there are things that feel scary. So what would your take? [00:25:56] Speaker B: All right, here's where I want to start. Perfect love casts out all fear. [00:26:02] Speaker A: Amen. [00:26:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I. If I am afraid, I have to draw upon the riches of Christ's love in a deeper way. I have to connect with the promises Christ made. There is therefore no condemnation to them that be in Christ Jesus as far [00:26:22] Speaker A: as the east is from the west. [00:26:23] Speaker B: Yes. He's promised to stand me up without spot and without blemish. [00:26:30] Speaker A: Yeah. As though we are scarlet. We'll be white as snow. Is that. [00:26:34] Speaker B: That's Isaiah. [00:26:36] Speaker A: When. When we were in. I think it was, ordination class, we were talking a little bit more in depth about all of this, and you had said something, and I think it was in the ordination class, you said, we often lose sight of the goodness of God. That might have been a sermon or the ordination. I can't remember. And one of the mentoring sessions. I am with you. It's easy for us to not have the starting point of the goodness of God. And I think that's what happens with uncertainty and the unknown. I hate to admit this. But my starting point isn't the goodness of God. It's always worst case scenario. Dang it. [00:27:25] Speaker B: Worst first. Worst first. [00:27:28] Speaker A: So I'm wondering. Could you get me a tissue? I'm wondering if we have this worst first mentality. How do we move to the goodness of God when we're thinking about these things? Like, the starting point is he is good. [00:27:47] Speaker B: Yes. Well, okay, are we. Do we want to talk about techniques or do we want to talk about. [00:28:00] Speaker A: Yes, both. We want to talk about it all. [00:28:01] Speaker B: All right. [00:28:02] Speaker A: This podcast, I think is going to be a little bit longer because it's interesting. But I think what we could do, dad, is we could do a part two. And I think maybe that could be some of the techniques. How are we part of the solution and not part of the problem? Does that sound good? [00:28:15] Speaker B: Yes. [00:28:15] Speaker A: Okay, so why don't you end us here then with. [00:28:20] Speaker B: Okay, so in the big picture sense, we can talk about techniques in a minute. In the big picture sense, I. Out of the. Keep the heart for. Out of it are the issues of life. I want a daily, healthy relationship with Christ. I want the Holy Spirit to set the agenda of my heart and mind. I want to have the kind of relationship with God where I connect to him spiritually and that sets my agenda for the day. [00:29:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:04] Speaker B: And the more I'm connecting and the more healthy way I'm connecting, the more influence he has with me and the more likely it is that I'm living in the riches of his goodness. The. The more surface my relationship is with him, the easier it is for my heart to be affected by this threat or that threat, this confusion or that disappointment. [00:29:37] Speaker A: It's. I love this because my daughter Lex and I were talking about this not too long ago. Um, it's easy to get wrapped up in self. Like, it's easy without even knowing it or meaning it. And maybe not even in terrible ways, but it's easy to be lost in your mind. It's easy to think about yourself more than anybody else. It's easy. But when you are on mission, when you are working towards something hard, like she's in school right now and doing ordination study myself and doing sermon preps. Like, when you are spending so much time with God and focused on him, you have less time to think about self. And I think there is a truth in the reality of where are you focused? And I think some of the end of the world stuff that it. It gets us off point, like you were saying, because we stopped focusing on what matters truly. Because then the fear is so overwhelming but when you stay on point and when you are working you the fear is less because you're too busy to think about the stuff you don't have time to think about. Is that fair? [00:30:49] Speaker B: How about this the prophet said you will keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on you because he trusts in you. Yeah where I choose to fix my mind that's going to affect my well being. [00:31:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Okay well let's let's do a second part and let's go to when things are tough. How are we part of the solution instead of part of the problem. So thank you so much for joining us this time. I can't wait to see you next time. Time this was a little bit different so let us know if you like this kind of topic if it was helpful and share it with someone you care about if it was. We will see you next time on Grow tension.