Forgiveness - Part 2

[00:00:03] Speaker A: Hey, welcome back to Grow Tension, the podcast where we are a father daughter duo doing our very best to learn and grow into the full potential that God has called us. How are you, my dad? [00:00:14] Speaker B: I'm good. How are you? [00:00:15] Speaker A: I'm good. So we filmed our first podcast on forgiveness, but the video went out. We don't get to see your gorgeous face. [00:00:24] Speaker B: Well, that's probably a blessing. [00:00:27] Speaker A: So if you are watching this on YouTube, we highly recommend, if you didn't hear our first podcast, to go back and listen to it because I think it's very, very helpful. We define forgiveness and how do we define it? [00:00:42] Speaker B: Forgiveness is releasing. [00:00:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:00:45] Speaker B: I release my right to be angry. I release my right to make somebody pay. I let it go. [00:00:52] Speaker A: And it's. It's a process. So just because you have decided to let it go doesn't mean you don't have to process. [00:00:59] Speaker B: That's right. [00:01:00] Speaker A: In fact, you do. And so we gave some tools on how to do that. But the reality is that when you forgive, there is a cost. And today we're going to talk about the cost of forgiveness, but we're going to end with the benefit of forgiveness. [00:01:17] Speaker B: Awesome. [00:01:18] Speaker A: I. Okay, dad. So I think we should start with the idea that forgiveness. We hit it in our last podcast, but I think we need, it's just fair to say one more time. When you are forgiving someone, you are not. You are not saying that it was okay or acceptable or you are not a doormat that they can walk over or a person that is weak. In fact, I think it's. It's very easy to walk away. I think it's easy to be resentful. I think it's easy to become bitter. I think what is hard is faith to try the growing to be more like Christ and saying, I am going to be a person of character and forgiveness. So you and I talk that really forgiveness has come pretty natural to you in that it hasn't. [00:02:13] Speaker B: I've not had to struggle with it. [00:02:15] Speaker A: Yeah. So when you think about the cost of forgiveness, is this from your own life? Is this from scripture? Is this from being a pastor? Where do you really kind of see it the most? [00:02:27] Speaker B: Well, I'd say probably most from my understanding of the scripture and my experience as a pastor. [00:02:35] Speaker A: Yeah, Just real life. [00:02:38] Speaker B: Because I really. I'm just. I just don't hold on to stuff. [00:02:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:46] Speaker B: I don't have space. [00:02:47] Speaker A: I think I hold on enough for the both of us. How about that? So I got you covered in that aspect. [00:02:53] Speaker B: I don't have space for It. [00:02:55] Speaker A: Yeah. I am a visceral human. So I feel like that is my hardship of like I feel everything so much and then I get angry and then I'm all the emotions and so. [00:03:06] Speaker B: Well, you got that from Shay. [00:03:08] Speaker A: Yeah, we're visceral. Visceral. But Mom's an awesome forgiver too. [00:03:13] Speaker B: Yes, she is. [00:03:14] Speaker A: Yeah. I think the. I think the hard piece of forgiveness is that it does you feel it. Okay, so let's go through some of the costs of forgiveness. If you are someone who has been hurt or wronged and you choose forgiveness, what do you see as one of the costs? [00:03:34] Speaker B: It cost you emotionally to let it go, which is why we hold on to it so long. [00:03:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:45] Speaker B: I feel like I'm giving up a Right. [00:03:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:49] Speaker B: Or I feel like I'm giving up what I deserve. [00:03:53] Speaker A: Or you're making it okay somehow and it's just not okay. [00:03:58] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:03:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:59] Speaker B: And that is a cost. I have to pay the cost to say I am forgiving. And if it means I'm giving up my right to be angry, well, then I'm going to pay that cost. If it means I give up my right to get even, well, I'm going to pay that cost. Often we hold on to things because we're just not willing to pay the emotional cost to let them go. [00:04:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Or no one's taught us how. [00:04:31] Speaker B: Or no one's taught us how. [00:04:33] Speaker A: And so I think when you hear these good ideas, it can seem so backwards. It can. It's like Jesus Christ's ministry was so seemingly backwards to our broken hearts. You know, someone hurts you, turn the other cheek. It's if they take your robe, give them another one. It's there. It seems so countercultural to us. Or. So what's the word is countercultural? [00:04:58] Speaker B: The word counterculture is good because we are a culture that likes to. You first delete people. What do we call it? [00:05:07] Speaker A: Cancel. [00:05:08] Speaker B: Cancel people. We love to cancel people. [00:05:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:11] Speaker B: And that's just an act of unforgiveness. [00:05:13] Speaker A: Yeah. And it is the opposite of what Christ teaches. And so as someone who does feel things very viscerally, I know the weight of what it feels like to forgive. And I think there can be moments where it feels like noble and I can be so proud of myself. But then there are moments where maybe it comes back again. And now I'm finding myself having to forgive the same thing that I already was so gracious for. And now it's coming up again. And now here I am having to yet again forgive. Where do you think A safe place to land is if you do choose forgiveness and you do feel the weight and the cost. [00:06:01] Speaker B: Well, probably some things, some single acts, you'll have to forgive multiple times in your own mind. I mean, it sounds like this. I forgave that. I let that go, and now I'm not taking that back again. I let that go and I'm not taking that back again. The second point you made about, okay, we all. We don't sin across the board. We sin in areas of our weaknesses. So of course, that is a weak area of my life. And those kind. Those sins in my weak area of life, they get repetitive reappear. Right. [00:06:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:49] Speaker B: So I've had people in my office and they've just. They're just. They're just. They can't forgive because somebody has lied to them so many times. Okay. But when your weakness is lying, you're going to lie many times. [00:07:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:09] Speaker B: If the flaw in your character is lying, that's going to repeat itself until you get healing from God. So I have to. One of the cost of forgiving is I have to accept that this person has character issues the very same way I have character issues. [00:07:30] Speaker A: And it's most likely in a different. [00:07:32] Speaker B: Area and probably in a different area. [00:07:35] Speaker A: Yeah. I think one of the hard things is we talked about it last podcast, acknowledging that. Okay. Just because that's not my sin doesn't mean I don't have my own issues. [00:07:46] Speaker B: Right. [00:07:47] Speaker A: And that self awareness that just like I need forgiveness for doing the dumb things over and over and over, so do the people in our life. So when you think of when you. [00:07:59] Speaker B: Said that Peter once asked Jesus, how many times, if my brother wrongs me, how many times do I have to forgive it? Up to seven. Because that was challenging to Peter. [00:08:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:15] Speaker B: And Jesus said, no, peter, up to 70 times seven. [00:08:19] Speaker A: We're going to make that exponential. Yeah. [00:08:22] Speaker B: So that fits this. [00:08:25] Speaker A: Yeah, it sure does. [00:08:26] Speaker B: Ah. If somebody's flawed in an area, there's going to be. That's going to express itself in multiple ways, and we're going to have to show forgiveness in multiple ways. [00:08:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Jake and I recently did a sermon on relationships where we were interviewed by our good friend Chet. He's been on the podcast before and a lifelong friend of ours. And one of the things that Jacob and I were talking about was when. When you marry someone, there is. Or you're in a relationship with someone, it's almost like you get these starry eyes and they lose their humanity or you put them on a pedestal and then something Happens and that pedestal is ripped out from under them or their car, the carpets ripped out. And you see their humanity in a whole new way. And one of the things before our sermon we were talking about is you do have to start with the base of we are humans and we are flawed and we are messed up, and with our humanness comes disappointment. And I think just acknowledging your humanness can kind of ease the cost a little bit. [00:09:40] Speaker B: I agree. [00:09:41] Speaker A: Not always, but I think there is an ease of man. We are all humans. And I try to give people the benefit of the doubt that they're doing their best. No, that's not true for everybody. But I think for a lot of people, they're doing their very best and they are finding ways to get it wrong. [00:09:58] Speaker B: I want to put a nuance on that because I'm thinking of people who. Who confuse forgiveness with permitting someone to perpetually hurt them. [00:10:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:20] Speaker B: Right. So in our last podcast, we talked about healthy boundaries. [00:10:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:25] Speaker B: So forgiveness doesn't mean that I just let the person abuse me. [00:10:33] Speaker A: Correct. [00:10:34] Speaker B: That's not forgiveness. Forgiveness is. [00:10:38] Speaker A: Yeah. And the cost is not your body or your own well being. [00:10:42] Speaker B: Right. [00:10:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:43] Speaker B: Forgiveness is. I am letting go of what this thing that happened in the past, but I am not opening myself. [00:10:55] Speaker A: You no longer have access. [00:10:56] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:10:57] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I think that is something Christians need to hear specifically because you can forget. You can confuse the forgiveness of God with access. [00:11:08] Speaker B: And I have known women that come in our church whose husbands are violent and they have confused forgiveness with submitting to that violence. [00:11:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:23] Speaker B: And it's not. [00:11:25] Speaker A: That is not what God wants. [00:11:27] Speaker B: No. [00:11:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. As we are talking about this idea of the cost, I think about unhealthy expectations that we have, or maybe just high expectations. I was recently at a cabin with Jacob and all his best friends and their wives, and we were playing this game where you so stupid. We were. You would count to three and you. You say a word. So we would both say a word at the same time. And you see how many tries it takes you to get to the same word. So if we both said a word at the same time, then we would use those two words to try to create a word. And I was going to every person and I'd give us like two chances and then I'd be like, not going to happen. And one of my friends said to me, he said, you have very high expectations, don't you, Sarah? I said, yeah, you nailed my children's biggest issues. Because I do think there are such high expectations for people, especially when you see Things beautiful. And you have great hopes and dreams. So what's your take on expectations in general? [00:12:41] Speaker B: Well, this is a odd side of forgiveness. Sometimes my expectations were wrong. And so I feel like the person that I need to forgive, they did the wrong thing. And in fact, all they did was not fulfill my expectations. [00:13:06] Speaker A: Do you have an example? Because I like to make things tangible for people. Because I think sometimes when we leave it broad, it's, like, hard to picture it. So do you have a good example? [00:13:15] Speaker B: I mean, we can take common things in life. I've known people got very angry about house chores, and the person who was angry about house chores had expectations for the other person. And because they weren't living up to those expectations. [00:13:37] Speaker A: Jake said he wasn't going to talk to you about this. [00:13:42] Speaker B: That's not true. Don't listen to that. So the person who feels wronged and feels like, why do I have to forgive this person? In fact, they had unrealistic expectations. It's realistic for Shay to expect me to haul out the garbage, but it's not realistic for her to expect me to cook a nice meal. Right. [00:14:09] Speaker A: Not your gift set. [00:14:10] Speaker B: Right. So in life, we create expectations. These expectations don't get fulfilled, man. [00:14:20] Speaker A: You can do it. Now that you're saying it's helping me understand. Because we do it with our children. [00:14:24] Speaker B: Oh. We do it terribly with our children. [00:14:26] Speaker A: As if, like, we somehow were perfect. Then we put the expectation on our kids. Even, like with a romantic partner, like with your spouse. I can see how sex. You could put the expectation on that. Just there's so many aspects of where you could set the expectation without a healthy conversation wrapped around it. [00:14:49] Speaker B: Right. And it doesn't have to be complex. I've had unrealistic expectations about Shea agreeing with me. [00:14:58] Speaker A: Mm. [00:14:58] Speaker B: They're just unrealistic expectations. [00:15:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:15:03] Speaker B: But they've caused unpleasantness. [00:15:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Jake and I had to make a deal that we had each other's back in public. Yeah. [00:15:12] Speaker B: So I felt like she needed to apologize to me, and I was the one who needed to apologize to her. [00:15:18] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think when it comes to expectations, too, there is a. I don't know. I need counseling on this one. My kids and I did a sermon together. We did a interview together, and it was one thing we all felt like we needed to talk about, but didn't know anything healthy to even talk about it. So let me ask you. Let me ask you a question. When it comes, how do you know if you have the wrong expectation? [00:15:45] Speaker B: I think we have to start by Being more diligent to say, it's my job. I don't say job. It's my gift to my family for me to understand their bent. For example, it's my job to understand my wife's love language. It's not her job to teach me her love language. It's part of a healthy relationship. [00:16:22] Speaker A: Okay, Five love languages. Great book. [00:16:25] Speaker B: So it's my job. I don't want to say job. I keep saying it. [00:16:29] Speaker A: It's okay. I understand what you're saying. [00:16:30] Speaker B: It's my. It's my responsibility to work to understand my spouse in the ways that I can have realistic expectations. Expectations are good. [00:16:45] Speaker A: That's where we were struggling, because I know they're good. I just don't know when they become unhealthy. [00:16:51] Speaker B: They become unhealthy. [00:16:52] Speaker A: I feel like I borderline it when we. [00:16:54] Speaker B: When we're putting a grid on our. The people we love and say, this is who you are. So this is what I expect from you. Or putting. Saying, whether you like to play baseball or not, in this family, we play baseball. And I don't just expect you to play baseball. I expect you to be on the. One of the best players on the best team, and the kid doesn't even like to play ball. Yeah, that is unhealthy. [00:17:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:32] Speaker B: A spouse wanting their spouse to have a career that they don't really have the personhood for or not have a career or not have a career that they do have the personhood for. [00:17:43] Speaker A: So when you think of this, of the cost of expectations. We were praying, and you said that something came to your mind about sometimes the cost is we have to change. [00:17:56] Speaker B: Right. [00:17:57] Speaker A: So the cost of forgiveness is we have to change. [00:18:03] Speaker B: Yes. [00:18:04] Speaker A: Tell me more. [00:18:06] Speaker B: So I'm thinking about this in a couple of ways. Forgiveness itself is an act of change. I change from being unforgiving to forgiving. I change from holding to letting go. The very act of forgiveness is a change. And it starts as a change in our thinking because we choose to forgive, but then it becomes a change in our behavior. When I'm unforgiving, I behave to a person in a certain way. [00:18:48] Speaker A: Such a great point. [00:18:49] Speaker B: When I'm forgiving, I change the way I behave toward them. [00:18:54] Speaker A: All right, let's draw it out for a second then. Because I think it's so good, so important. So when I'm unforgiving, I think my go to is I think I'm better than Right. I mean, doesn't that sometimes fall into play of like, I would never do what you did. And so therefore, I'm better than. And then that is how I treat the people that I love. I can be super disrespectful. I can try to hurt back. Hurt people, hurt people. Right. Like the dysfunction of unforgiveness. [00:19:34] Speaker B: Right. The behaviors of unforgiveness always. I don't want to say always. The behaviors of unforgiveness generally exacerbate the problem. [00:19:48] Speaker A: My daughter and I and some of the staff were in our. We're going to seminary, and we're doing an ethics class. And in it, we are learning different theories, ethic theories. And something that happened in 2020 was I could so clearly see how people became what they hated. It was so easy for me to see that if you politically believed one thing and you were trying to be for people, how intolerant you would become of people who didn't believe the same way, and you became what you were trying to fight against. And I think this can be a little bit of exactly what we're talking about. Like, in the unforgiveness, you are becoming something that you don't want to be. No. And. And just being aware. Am I becoming what I actually hate? I think is a great question to ask yourself, because I think if you don't, it can very easily happen. [00:20:54] Speaker B: Very. [00:20:55] Speaker A: You can very easily slip into making decisions or hating or being intolerant or just becoming the very thing you're upset about. Does that make sense? [00:21:06] Speaker B: Perfect sense. And that's a cost we have to pay. I have to be willing to change. I have to be willing to say, Christ is calling me to think differently and behave differently. And in this act of forgiveness, I'm saying yes. [00:21:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:32] Speaker B: Another way we have to change is we have to change our values. When I. When I won't forgive somebody, I devalue them. When I. When an act of forgiveness is to raise the value, I'm saying to the person I'm forgiving, I value and love you enough to let this go. [00:22:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:07] Speaker B: Right. [00:22:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:10] Speaker B: As an expression of my value for you, I'm gonna let this go. I love you more than I care about this one event, this topic. [00:22:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. That's really good. I was working on creating values, Jacob and I did, values for our kids that lasted, I don't know, over 20 years. And now we're in the stage of almost being empty nesters, where our kids are going to be grown and married and all graduating college, and so we went. [00:22:44] Speaker B: But we still have the baby. Cela. [00:22:46] Speaker A: Give me the baby. Give me the baby. Someone said, you really talk like a baby every time you see her. And I said, I know. I can't help it. I love her so much. ADD pulled me from my. So Jacob and I went to breakfast a couple months ago to create new values to guide us for, you know, the next 20, 25 years. And one of the things I learned along the way is sometimes you can write values towards who you want to be, but maybe what you're not good at right now. And so one of the ideas then is if forgiveness, it's something that's hard for you, then make it a. Because it becomes something. A lens you look through in a different way, which I just. I thought was interesting because you always try to find the positive of, like, the good, the beauty. And it's like, well, what could I get better at that I need to focus on? We. One of our first values when we were young, with our parenting, it was respect. And I think I was not great at that. I. And I wanted my kids to have a level of it that I didn't see in myself. And so it was like a perfect one to fix. But then, man, I was really good at fun. So fun was a value. [00:24:04] Speaker B: Fun was always your sweet suit. [00:24:06] Speaker A: Yeah. So. So I'm Jacobs and I, we have two right now. Adventure. We want adventure in our work life, adventure in our home, adventure with each other and our friends. And then generosity is going to be a big piece of how we want to do and live the next 20 some years. So we're still working on our third. Okay, so when you think about the cost of forgiveness, and you think about just having to carry the weight of it, you think about the expectations. What is a benefit of forgiveness? [00:24:45] Speaker B: Well, before we get to benefits, I'd like to insert Christ model for us paying the cost of forgiveness. [00:24:55] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:24:56] Speaker B: There is no better example. No one ever paid a greater cross to be forgiving than Jesus Christ. The prophet Isaiah said he was wounded for our transgressions. He was bruised for our iniquity. The chastisement of our peace was upon him. And with his stripes, we are healed. Yeah, those words are really. Those words have been softened. He was literally pierced through for our transgression. He was flogged for our iniquity, the torn flesh. His flesh was torn for our chastisement. He paid an inexplicable price to forgive us. And then Paul taught us, because Christ forgave us, we should forgive one another. [00:26:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:08] Speaker B: When I feel like I can't forgive, I need to remind myself what it cost Christ to forgive me. When I feel like somebody doesn't deserve to be forgiven, I need to remind myself of what it cost Christ to forgive me. And then I need to. That'll take me to, oh, how I benefited by Christ forgiving me. I'm reconciled to God. I have hope for an inheritance that's laid up in heaven for me. I'm going to live in the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ, all because Christ paid the price of forgiveness. And when I think of the benefits that I get by Christ forgiving me, then it leads naturally to me thinking about the benefits, the blessing I can be by forgiving others. [00:27:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:07] Speaker B: I'm not a better man because Christ condemned me. I'm a better man because he forgave me. I'm not a better man because Christ harshly judges me. I'm a better man because Christ's grace treats me better than what I deserve. And his mercy is the answer to my misery. It is the goodness of God in forgiveness that makes me a better man. [00:27:34] Speaker A: Yeah. David, the psalmist says, your gentleness made me great. And it has been a line I have, like, just been stewing over over and over and over again because there is such beauty in that line. Your gentleness made me great. You're saying this, and it's all making me think the cost of forgiveness. You know, when Christ was resurrected, a lot of people didn't notice him, like, recognize him, I should say. But what was recognizable was the scars in his hand. You know, even Christ himself in the resurrected body had scars. It's interesting that in the resurrected body, they were still there. Like, how we live and what happens in this lifetime does matter. [00:28:23] Speaker B: Yeah. If we suffer with him, we'll reign with him. [00:28:26] Speaker A: Yeah. And so sometimes the scars can be the beauty of our story, you know, the scars of forgiveness, the cost of it's not easy. But, man, is it worth it? [00:28:38] Speaker B: It is worth it. [00:28:39] Speaker A: And I think it is a beautiful story to tell. Okay, we have two minutes. The benefit of forgiveness. [00:28:55] Speaker B: Let'S say I. [00:28:56] Speaker A: Just can't help thinking about the scars and how that's like man, let's say, too makes me want to go to battle in the good ways. [00:29:02] Speaker B: You know, I am in dangerous for good. [00:29:04] Speaker A: Let's go. [00:29:07] Speaker B: I benefit by forgiving others. I let go. I don't carry the burden around. I'm free. I treat people in a better way. I get a great benefit from forgiveness. [00:29:23] Speaker A: You represent something more beautiful, too. [00:29:26] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:29:27] Speaker A: And so when you. I always think about, okay, whoever you're forgiving and you're showing this act of grace, maybe they don't deserve it, but you are showing what the love of Christ actually looks like in a very tangible way. Because I think sometimes it's one thing to read what Christ did, but it's a whole other thing that when you are in the depths of man, just shame and guilt, and someone comes alongside you and loves you and forgives you and shows you something better, it's such a tangible picture of Jesus Christ. [00:30:01] Speaker B: Yes, it is. [00:30:02] Speaker A: And that is noble. [00:30:03] Speaker B: It is. Another benefit of forgiveness is I make an investment in the forgiven person's future. I'm investing something good in their future. They don't have to live in the future with the worst of me. They get to live with the best of me. And this is really what makes great relationships. There is an investment from person to person of what is best about who we are, not what is worse about who we are. [00:30:39] Speaker A: I love it. I love it. All right, dad. Well, I thank you so much for your time. Thanks for your wisdom. I get so many people telling me how much they benefit from your wisdom and just this time together. So thank you so very much. I love you. [00:30:55] Speaker B: I love to thank you because people tell me what an awesome job you do. [00:30:59] Speaker A: Thanks, dad. All right. Love you. [00:31:01] Speaker B: I love you. [00:31:02] Speaker A: We will see you next time.